I wish you would stop doing product reviews. Stick with tactics and overcoming church issues. For you condemn the P320 is extremely unprofessional. This is a ministry not an opinion on products.
Robert, with all do respect then you don't see the criticality of the issue at hand with the P320 and the design of the FCU. Go study it and some of the incidents. If not taken seriously you or the safety team, or your church could be sued if you allowed continued use. SIG has a huge mess on their hands with the P320. All other SIG platforms are good to go IMO.
I disagree, this has been researched, proven in court that the issue is with reholstering and or an obstruction in holsters. Instructors, which I am a TCOLE Firearms Instructor, should not teach to reholster without looking at their holster. Instead, re holster reluctantly, and viewing your holster. It is common to get things in your holster and causing a negligent discharge. The Sig P 320 does not magically fire without a trigger pull. Sig Sauer has won each case that has been brought to litigation. Texas DPS, US Army and my own agency has approved the weapon for on duty use. Here’s my final thought, you carry what you want, my hope is you’re training proficiently with whatever platform you are using. But quit blaming the gun unless you can prove otherwise with facts. In all the arguments I have seen the only legitimate argument is the holster. Have a nice day!!
Robert, I'm a certified instructor also and have repeated "slowly and deliberately, reholster" a thousand times at least. I can't and won't argue that point.
But the rest... we will simply agree to disagree. See my post below with 2 uncommanded discharges that SIG, you or I can't fully explain. But they did happen without the trigger being pulled.
Not a product review, it's a serious safety concern. Please do research. I was skeptical, my first issued weapon was a 229, I really like my 365. The Montville PD Lobby incident is what sealed it for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0
I would love any context you have. Sig just blamed holsters but provided no further evidence. That's also not the only incident, you have cops medically retired from a 320 going off in the holster and Sig has labeled them "anti-gun shills". That's a bold move when they have no proof it wasn't their gun that was not drop safe when they sold it to the US Military. Honestly though, if you have further proof, info, context, please share it.
What proof would accept? You clearly won't listen to SIG. Why would you listen to me? You're mind is already made up based on zero evidence which is indicative to me of SDS.
Trigger moved to the rear and the gun fired as designed. Why did it move to the rear? Because of a fault with that shitty Serpa style button lock retention device. Guns, gear and girls....you get what you pay for.
Yes, regarding the Youtube video by the self proclaimed master. Sure, purposely induced failures using altered non-SIG OEM parts, filthy gun, etc. dude was able to induce a failure. Am I surprised by that? No more surprised than if it had been a Glock or a 1911 or a Smith or an AR style rifle. FA doing stupid things and FO for sure. It would have been a far better and relevant video if he had used a post-upgrade gun with SIG parts that were relatively clean and lubricated properly. But as the master there even noted, his video is pretty meaningless and is a statistical example of exactly ONE wherein altered parts, filthy internal conditions and induced external conditions that were designed to cause the gun to fire "uncommanded". A yawner.
Keith, I've been following this issue since about 2017. It is definitely a serious problem. SIG makes great weapons but the P320 is not a safe handgun to carry. Hopefully they get the issue resolved. Thank you for your diligence and keeping us informed.
I believe all striker fired pistols should not be used for appendix carry. I use a CZ P07 with a hammer and decocker . Safe for me and all. Safe and visible.
Might also give a shout out to revolvers as an option.
Striker fired pistols are far safer to carry appendix. External hammers are exposed when holstered. That alone is reason enough to never carry IWB with an external hammer. Clothing/hands can catch that hammer far too easily.
Funny how it only seems to be people who buy SIGs who have atrocious gun handling skills to the point were people think there's something wrong with it.
I'm glad you agree that users of SIG don't generally have bad gun handling skills. There is something wrong with the gun for it to go off in the holster without the trigger being pressed in conditions that every other modem striker fire model handles every day to the point where agencies have to drop it and ban it.
Before you condemn all sig P3 20s I Think you should be directing your comments and concerns to Sig themselves. I am a member of my churches safety team here in North Idaho and I have five P3 20s and I train twice a week with a pro and with two individual church safety teams I’ve run my own personal 320s through all kinds of torture test and never have I had one ever mess up I know, for a fact that most of these reports are user era, many of which are re-holstering the pistol too fast and the finger going down into the holster with the gun creating a discharge. I am running approximately 200 rounds a week through these 320s and have been for the last three years and I certainly have Had no issues with mine. Also, all of my SIGs are post safety updates that Sig put into place after 2017.
How do you reconcile your comments against the videos showing no interaction with P320's going off on their own. The fact that most haven't is not good enough, when it is proven some have. Glad you have not had the issue...yet, but it is a serious issue for the platform.
That is a very fair report and recommendation. My own son has an M17, which he loves at the range. But after recently graduating from a gun smithing course, he will tell you that it (p320) is not drop safe. His does have the external safety and comfortable with it as home safety. But, for every day carry he has two other options.
What bothers me more about the report is that apparently there are numerous ADs that occur outside of the P320; by pros? What is up with that? 30 years of carrying, never had one. I am btw, a Sig guy. All Sig. when I did have a P320 Tac-Op, never had an AD, including one time drop from shoulder holster, a holster failure. The holster was of course thrown out and replaced. I since replaced the P320 with a P226, which is now my primary security carry. Lots of great options. So,Keith, I completely agree with your recommendation.
This will upset some people. I appreciate the input myself. I feel for anyone reading the report that has a P320. What the heck do they do? I can tell you what I would do. I would take the input an the report an ask Sig if they would recall the weapon for me. The answer would be no if I don't ask. After this report I would not carry the pistol. I'm happy with Glock, an M&P.
I am not a 30 year veteran of the police force. But when one tells me the danger of this striker fire pistol an gives instances critical thinking would take the warning.
I have got rid of every Glock gen 4 an 5 I have because the mag release let a mag out. It's too big. Gen 3 only.
I just checked with my local gun store and they told me that this doesn't apply to California firearms. California would not have put this firearm on their roster this year if the problem still existed.
The army in Marine Corps had both had uncommitted discharges like law-enforcement. From an investigation I read from arm CID. It looks like the safety does not work to stop this discharge.
This isn't a product review. This is clearly an unbiased report about problems with a specific firearm. If this was a review, there would be reports about other qualities like form and ease of use. This article is simply about the factual lack of safety of the 320. Pretending this is a review is disingenuous and misses the clear problem with people being shot and killed by their own 320 in the holster with nothing touching the trigger.
I am a 27 year veteran of a very large federal law enforcement agency as well as an Army veteran and work for two different companies as a firearms instructor and armorer. And I'm saying the problem lies not with the hardware but rather the software.
As for your Glock, you could have easily replaced the mag catch without having to seel the guns and buy another.
You are partially right. there is a problem with the *software at SIG gaslighting people about the clear problems with the 320. There is a *Software issue at SIG where they're creating substandard parts and putting them into duty firearms. There is a *Software problem at sig where they are repeatedly putting the wrong parts into firearms, ie (45 cal frame parts into a 9mm frame). There is a *Software issue at SIG with their QC. The *Software problem is creating actual hardware issues.
You must suffer from SSS. Either you're a paid troll for SIG, work at SIG, a bot, or really special with all of the effort you make in defending a single firearm with so many known problems with safety. Or you bought a base 320 and can't afford anything else and are taking it out on everyone else in hopes of getting your org to allow you to use your 320 and in that case I am really sorry for you.
LW, I'm sure a few of the P320 incidents are ND's however if you look at the whole many are not and that is serious and dangerous. I'm not anti-SIG. SIG must address this head on and get if fixed.
To use the p320 for duty or security purposes is to make dangerous work more so unnecessarily more dangerous. One must have confidence in ones firearm!
Two P320 uncommanded discharge incidents speak volumes to the severity of this issue that SIG to this day has flat denied and also gone all in to try and squash. I'm not buying it either Keith.
#1 - Female officer walking across the parking lot of her PD's HQ building on surveillance camera and her gun goes bang. No hands near the gun!!
#2 - A shooter at a match somewhere in the SE US did a load and make ready, holstered his weapon and was in the stages starting position of surrender and bang. This was NOT captured on video but multiple witness saw it and its undeputible that the shooters hands were nowhere near the holster, let along the trigger. His hands were over his head to start that stage of competition.
Where is the drop safety engaging the striker if NEITHER of those incidents show 0% trigger engagement?
I'm a gunsmith and if you study the FCU you will see the trigger transfer bar is NOT directly disengaging the drop safety on a P320 like a Glock, S&W, and all other pistols. Its the movement of the sear disengaging from the striker that pushes the small thin blade of the drop safety out of the way of the striker. Yes.... the sear starts to disengage the striker and that cams up the drop safety out of the way allowing the striker ot go forward. Now dodn't misread this. This is NOT the smoking gun that explains all this uncommanded discharges. I'm simply pointing out a design flaw. And SIG has publicly stated more than once "this P320 pistol can NOT fires unless you pull the trigger" well, in these 2 incidents ... it did!
or to use an analogy to explain the sear moving the drop safety design instead of the trigger transfer bar doing that work... If you are a logger and you are topping a tree out, would you tie your safety line to the limb your are getting ready to cut off the tree, or would you tie your safety harness to the trunk of the tree? think about it.
It's a long video. Or go to the 13:20 minute mark and watch his gun fire with a light strike of a nylon hammer on top of the slide. Folks, that wasn't supposed to happen if the drop safety operated properly. See above design of sear/drop safety movement.
Of course. Sure. Let me introduce to you one Alec Baldwin. He also has a gun that just went off by itself. Just ask him. Of course you have to suspend facts and just take his word for it.
Someone below commented that they felt it was wrong for Keith to make this kind of product warning. I have to admit I have mixed thoughts on it myself. So I’m not going to go there.
I will say that 99% (or so) of YouTube video “experts” claim you (presumably all of you) should carry with one chambered. Personally I believe everyone should do their own risk analysis of their personal situation and make their own decision, and perhaps the church security lead should do risk analysis for their church situation and either make a mandate or a strong recommendation. Just like you are more likely to have a child sex offense than you are to have a church attack, you are generally more likely to have an ND than an attack. You can significantly cut down the odds of that carrying unchambered.
A lot of folks will hate that idea but do you want a bunch of locked and loaded guns around your family?
I wish you would stop doing product reviews. Stick with tactics and overcoming church issues. For you condemn the P320 is extremely unprofessional. This is a ministry not an opinion on products.
Robert, with all do respect then you don't see the criticality of the issue at hand with the P320 and the design of the FCU. Go study it and some of the incidents. If not taken seriously you or the safety team, or your church could be sued if you allowed continued use. SIG has a huge mess on their hands with the P320. All other SIG platforms are good to go IMO.
Sorry Steve, you are dead wrong. The 320 is as safe as any other firearm and in fact safer than a lot of them.
I disagree, this has been researched, proven in court that the issue is with reholstering and or an obstruction in holsters. Instructors, which I am a TCOLE Firearms Instructor, should not teach to reholster without looking at their holster. Instead, re holster reluctantly, and viewing your holster. It is common to get things in your holster and causing a negligent discharge. The Sig P 320 does not magically fire without a trigger pull. Sig Sauer has won each case that has been brought to litigation. Texas DPS, US Army and my own agency has approved the weapon for on duty use. Here’s my final thought, you carry what you want, my hope is you’re training proficiently with whatever platform you are using. But quit blaming the gun unless you can prove otherwise with facts. In all the arguments I have seen the only legitimate argument is the holster. Have a nice day!!
Robert, I'm a certified instructor also and have repeated "slowly and deliberately, reholster" a thousand times at least. I can't and won't argue that point.
But the rest... we will simply agree to disagree. See my post below with 2 uncommanded discharges that SIG, you or I can't fully explain. But they did happen without the trigger being pulled.
You have a nice day also.
in HIS Service
Wrong. The trigger WAS pulled.
LW, you are absolutely correct. Have a nice day.
Absolutely. Thank you. May you as well.
Not a product review, it's a serious safety concern. Please do research. I was skeptical, my first issued weapon was a 229, I really like my 365. The Montville PD Lobby incident is what sealed it for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0
And Seamus, you have absolutely ZERO context about what happened before that video or after. None. That short snippet of video does NOT tell the tale.
I would love any context you have. Sig just blamed holsters but provided no further evidence. That's also not the only incident, you have cops medically retired from a 320 going off in the holster and Sig has labeled them "anti-gun shills". That's a bold move when they have no proof it wasn't their gun that was not drop safe when they sold it to the US Military. Honestly though, if you have further proof, info, context, please share it.
What proof would accept? You clearly won't listen to SIG. Why would you listen to me? You're mind is already made up based on zero evidence which is indicative to me of SDS.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/O1v9WaXg0eQ
Trigger moved to the rear and the gun fired as designed. Why did it move to the rear? Because of a fault with that shitty Serpa style button lock retention device. Guns, gear and girls....you get what you pay for.
https://youtu.be/1b_Up5Ste9c
Yes, regarding the Youtube video by the self proclaimed master. Sure, purposely induced failures using altered non-SIG OEM parts, filthy gun, etc. dude was able to induce a failure. Am I surprised by that? No more surprised than if it had been a Glock or a 1911 or a Smith or an AR style rifle. FA doing stupid things and FO for sure. It would have been a far better and relevant video if he had used a post-upgrade gun with SIG parts that were relatively clean and lubricated properly. But as the master there even noted, his video is pretty meaningless and is a statistical example of exactly ONE wherein altered parts, filthy internal conditions and induced external conditions that were designed to cause the gun to fire "uncommanded". A yawner.
Keith, I've been following this issue since about 2017. It is definitely a serious problem. SIG makes great weapons but the P320 is not a safe handgun to carry. Hopefully they get the issue resolved. Thank you for your diligence and keeping us informed.
Robert, the 320 is perfectly safe. What is not safe are some of the humans that are mishandling them.
I believe all striker fired pistols should not be used for appendix carry. I use a CZ P07 with a hammer and decocker . Safe for me and all. Safe and visible.
Might also give a shout out to revolvers as an option.
Striker fired pistols are far safer to carry appendix. External hammers are exposed when holstered. That alone is reason enough to never carry IWB with an external hammer. Clothing/hands can catch that hammer far too easily.
I read most people put their thumb over the hammer. Very secure. I do carry my Sig P365 (striker) appendix with a tee shirt sometimes.
Thought about buying one for this purpose, glad I didn't, got a 365xl instead.
Question- did any of those p320s have safetys?
They ALL have safeties. Multiple safties in fact.
That's a scary thought, I bet many would have assumed as I did that the ones with external safetys would not have that issue. Hope they fix that
There's nothing scary about the 320. The scary thing is the atrocious gun handling by ill trained and careless people.
Funny how it only seems to be people who buy SIGs who have atrocious gun handling skills to the point were people think there's something wrong with it.
Oh its hardly SIG that has bad results from poor gunhandling skills.
I'm glad you agree that users of SIG don't generally have bad gun handling skills. There is something wrong with the gun for it to go off in the holster without the trigger being pressed in conditions that every other modem striker fire model handles every day to the point where agencies have to drop it and ban it.
Hello Keith,
Before you condemn all sig P3 20s I Think you should be directing your comments and concerns to Sig themselves. I am a member of my churches safety team here in North Idaho and I have five P3 20s and I train twice a week with a pro and with two individual church safety teams I’ve run my own personal 320s through all kinds of torture test and never have I had one ever mess up I know, for a fact that most of these reports are user era, many of which are re-holstering the pistol too fast and the finger going down into the holster with the gun creating a discharge. I am running approximately 200 rounds a week through these 320s and have been for the last three years and I certainly have Had no issues with mine. Also, all of my SIGs are post safety updates that Sig put into place after 2017.
God bless you and keep up the good work!
How do you reconcile your comments against the videos showing no interaction with P320's going off on their own. The fact that most haven't is not good enough, when it is proven some have. Glad you have not had the issue...yet, but it is a serious issue for the platform.
Stan, there is NO such video in existance that depicts that. None.
https://youtu.be/SLlzXQpAPYs?si=c_F3ElnZ2iZXfI6Q
This is the best you can do? Seriously?
That is a very fair report and recommendation. My own son has an M17, which he loves at the range. But after recently graduating from a gun smithing course, he will tell you that it (p320) is not drop safe. His does have the external safety and comfortable with it as home safety. But, for every day carry he has two other options.
What bothers me more about the report is that apparently there are numerous ADs that occur outside of the P320; by pros? What is up with that? 30 years of carrying, never had one. I am btw, a Sig guy. All Sig. when I did have a P320 Tac-Op, never had an AD, including one time drop from shoulder holster, a holster failure. The holster was of course thrown out and replaced. I since replaced the P320 with a P226, which is now my primary security carry. Lots of great options. So,Keith, I completely agree with your recommendation.
Sorry Norm, your son does not know of what he speaks.
This will upset some people. I appreciate the input myself. I feel for anyone reading the report that has a P320. What the heck do they do? I can tell you what I would do. I would take the input an the report an ask Sig if they would recall the weapon for me. The answer would be no if I don't ask. After this report I would not carry the pistol. I'm happy with Glock, an M&P.
I feel sorry for people that can not critically THINK for themselves.
I am not a 30 year veteran of the police force. But when one tells me the danger of this striker fire pistol an gives instances critical thinking would take the warning.
I have got rid of every Glock gen 4 an 5 I have because the mag release let a mag out. It's too big. Gen 3 only.
Does this include the Legion X5?
If it is the 320 Legion. It’s the same firing system. There is a very recent video of one going off in the holster. That was a legion.
Well gotta call bullshit again here Keith. If you such a video, post it. But, you won't. Am I right?
I just checked with my local gun store and they told me that this doesn't apply to California firearms. California would not have put this firearm on their roster this year if the problem still existed.
Exactly John.
So my external safety doesn't eliminate this?
The army in Marine Corps had both had uncommitted discharges like law-enforcement. From an investigation I read from arm CID. It looks like the safety does not work to stop this discharge.
I have one. That’s a lot of gun to conceal. Great for competition.
This isn't a product review. This is clearly an unbiased report about problems with a specific firearm. If this was a review, there would be reports about other qualities like form and ease of use. This article is simply about the factual lack of safety of the 320. Pretending this is a review is disingenuous and misses the clear problem with people being shot and killed by their own 320 in the holster with nothing touching the trigger.
I am a 27 year veteran of a very large federal law enforcement agency as well as an Army veteran and work for two different companies as a firearms instructor and armorer. And I'm saying the problem lies not with the hardware but rather the software.
As for your Glock, you could have easily replaced the mag catch without having to seel the guns and buy another.
You are partially right. there is a problem with the *software at SIG gaslighting people about the clear problems with the 320. There is a *Software issue at SIG where they're creating substandard parts and putting them into duty firearms. There is a *Software problem at sig where they are repeatedly putting the wrong parts into firearms, ie (45 cal frame parts into a 9mm frame). There is a *Software issue at SIG with their QC. The *Software problem is creating actual hardware issues.
David, you are absolutely wrong on all accounts. But you keep drinking from the SDS fountain.
You must suffer from SSS. Either you're a paid troll for SIG, work at SIG, a bot, or really special with all of the effort you make in defending a single firearm with so many known problems with safety. Or you bought a base 320 and can't afford anything else and are taking it out on everyone else in hopes of getting your org to allow you to use your 320 and in that case I am really sorry for you.
LW, again same with the other gentleman above, we will have to agree to adamantly disagree.
in HIS service,
Steve
You can certainly disagree with me Steve. That is your right. But it is a disagreement not founded in fact. For some people, 2+2=7. I get it.
2+2=4 and 320+Holster= Wounded and dead cops.
LW, I'm sure a few of the P320 incidents are ND's however if you look at the whole many are not and that is serious and dangerous. I'm not anti-SIG. SIG must address this head on and get if fixed.
Please show me one that is not an ND. I'll wait.
They're all ND. The Negligence is from SIG.
To use the p320 for duty or security purposes is to make dangerous work more so unnecessarily more dangerous. One must have confidence in ones firearm!
Only if you mishandle it Ted.
What about the Sig P365 series of pistols?
They are good to go
Thank you sir! Assuming the firing pin/plunger design is different than the 320
Two P320 uncommanded discharge incidents speak volumes to the severity of this issue that SIG to this day has flat denied and also gone all in to try and squash. I'm not buying it either Keith.
#1 - Female officer walking across the parking lot of her PD's HQ building on surveillance camera and her gun goes bang. No hands near the gun!!
#2 - A shooter at a match somewhere in the SE US did a load and make ready, holstered his weapon and was in the stages starting position of surrender and bang. This was NOT captured on video but multiple witness saw it and its undeputible that the shooters hands were nowhere near the holster, let along the trigger. His hands were over his head to start that stage of competition.
Where is the drop safety engaging the striker if NEITHER of those incidents show 0% trigger engagement?
I'm a gunsmith and if you study the FCU you will see the trigger transfer bar is NOT directly disengaging the drop safety on a P320 like a Glock, S&W, and all other pistols. Its the movement of the sear disengaging from the striker that pushes the small thin blade of the drop safety out of the way of the striker. Yes.... the sear starts to disengage the striker and that cams up the drop safety out of the way allowing the striker ot go forward. Now dodn't misread this. This is NOT the smoking gun that explains all this uncommanded discharges. I'm simply pointing out a design flaw. And SIG has publicly stated more than once "this P320 pistol can NOT fires unless you pull the trigger" well, in these 2 incidents ... it did!
or to use an analogy to explain the sear moving the drop safety design instead of the trigger transfer bar doing that work... If you are a logger and you are topping a tree out, would you tie your safety line to the limb your are getting ready to cut off the tree, or would you tie your safety harness to the trunk of the tree? think about it.
Check out this video
https://youtu.be/1b_Up5Ste9c
It's a long video. Or go to the 13:20 minute mark and watch his gun fire with a light strike of a nylon hammer on top of the slide. Folks, that wasn't supposed to happen if the drop safety operated properly. See above design of sear/drop safety movement.
in HIS Service
Of course. Sure. Let me introduce to you one Alec Baldwin. He also has a gun that just went off by itself. Just ask him. Of course you have to suspend facts and just take his word for it.
Someone below commented that they felt it was wrong for Keith to make this kind of product warning. I have to admit I have mixed thoughts on it myself. So I’m not going to go there.
I will say that 99% (or so) of YouTube video “experts” claim you (presumably all of you) should carry with one chambered. Personally I believe everyone should do their own risk analysis of their personal situation and make their own decision, and perhaps the church security lead should do risk analysis for their church situation and either make a mandate or a strong recommendation. Just like you are more likely to have a child sex offense than you are to have a church attack, you are generally more likely to have an ND than an attack. You can significantly cut down the odds of that carrying unchambered.
A lot of folks will hate that idea but do you want a bunch of locked and loaded guns around your family?
Just wondering if your personal 320's in the photo, are 2014 models or earlier?