I am thoroughly enjoying, as it were reading your insights. I am just joining a church security team and I don't think they follow you.
I appreciate your list of PDWs, but at this stage I still worry...they are one heartbeat away from being illegal SBRs, and leave us open to prosecution. What are your thoughts on the Keltec sub2000 and the SW model PCCs?
Thank you, and God Bless you for all you do for us.
Nice evaluation Mr. Graves. I was a bit surprised though that the CMMG Banshee didn't make the list, particularly the 10mm Auto version.
Not only does the Banshee itself seems to be an ergonomic, reliable platform, but the 10mm Auto chambering is especially intriguing because of two prominent factors: A) ballistic performance; B) ammo and magazine (loadout) interchangability possibility.
----------------------------
(A). The 10mm can be loaded to achieve very similar terminal performance to 7.62×39 or 300 AAC out of the length of barrels requisite for a concealable (yet quickly deployable) PDW, but without excess muzzle blast and wasted propellant. Out of barrels in that conformation (i.e. around 7" to 8"), the cartridge actually has considerably more knockdown than 5.56 NATO, and yet isn't wasting propellant or breech pressure, with a large muzzle blast. Perhaps it's needless to say, but the 10mm also has much greater power and superior ballistic trajectory to 9×19 Parabellum out to the 100 yard consideration.
(B.) The 10mm Auto, unlike 300 AAC or other intermediate cartridges, can be and is chambered in fighting pistols. It's a very practical, eminently viable pistol cartridge, in addition to qualifying as an intermediate cartridge (loaded adequately) when fired from PDW length barrels. This affords team members the ability to have both the pistol and the PDW/longarm in the same chambering, which is a huge operational and tactical advantage. In the case of the Banshee, if people are utilizing the excellent Glock20 handgun, the same magazines are even interchangeable, which is another excellent operational and tactical advantage.
In short here, utilizing 9×19 or 45 ACP to achieve the same uniformity in ammo carriage and interchangability of the loadout means sacrificing significant (arguably even substantive) power and ballistic performance out of the PDW, while utlizing 300 AAC, 5.56, 7.62×39 or similar to any of these means giving up shared ammo loadout and interchangability.
----------------------------
Leaving aside the idea of 10mm Auto not being in the evaluation as an intermediate cartridge, I would be most curious to hear why the Banshee (in any chambering) did not make the list. Was it considered? If so, did you discern issues with it? Would be awesome to get a follow up reply.
I have owned the CMMG Mk10 when it was first released. I'm a 10mm guy and own 4 different 10mm pistols and/or PCC. CMMG is a great concept, but people need to be aware of one issue with this gun before laying out the money for it.
To get that long case to proper feed/function CMMG designed that gun with a lot of case head protrusion. This helps get that long case squared up with the chamber to properly seat/headspace and subsequently fire/eject.
Have you noticed the bulges going 360 degrees around the base of the case for the first .300 of case length measured up from the base of the case? Yes, I also purchased the 8oz extra heavy buffer and it helps, but there is still bugles when firing higher pressure ammunition. I can fire S&B FMJ or similar rounds and the cases expand but not too bad. But you put any type of defensive round in there that is good quality (Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST 200gr SD loads will severely bugle the cases to where they can never be reloaded safely a second time. Even if you don't reload, CMMG is relaying on the thickness of the first .300" of the case to take the pressure before and during the extraction process when the chamber pressure is still very high because of the radial delayed blowback design. The "lugs" on mine have peened over a lot to where they have created sharp edges. I just wished CMMG themselves and all the youtube gun reviewers who praised this gun so heavily would have brought up this issue.
I'm left handed and I look right into the ejection port of my Banshee and .035/.040 of brass is what is holding back the chamber pressure from blowing directly into my face.
But I love the ergo of the Banshee with 100% AR based controls shooting a short barreled 10mm. So I contacted Rudy at maconarmory.com and had him build me a complete DI uppper in 10mm and took off the CMMG radial delayed design. Rudy's chamber is fully supported and using a adjustable gas key and the heavy 8oz buffer I can shoot heavy pressure ammo. Then if I want to shoot practice ammo I put the H3 buffer back in it with changing the gas key setting and it will run most practice FMJ ammo.
Using the DI upper I can do called headshots out to 100yds with terminal ballistics similar to what a 40 S&W does out of a pistol at the muzzle. But you need to keep over penetration in mind with this setup. Great for engaging around vehicles in a parking lot, but not so great inside with kids on the other side of the wall you might be shooting towards.
Please don't take this wrong, I love the CMMG concept. I just wish they would have been upfront about how they accomplished the good feed/firing/extraction that everyone else had issues with in 10mm. And over-penetration is a real question everyone needs to evaluate themselves.
I wish I could post pictures. I could show the lug peening issue and the case bulging issues.
I know of two other Banshees in my area that are 9mm and they run them hard all day and never had any issues with the peening of the lugs. Obviously they don't have the bulging issue because of the shorter 9mm case feed very easily.
I am no "quitter", but I'll share my story about our local church here in Upstate NY. After becoming a "members" of our church (for clarification, we Jesus-Believers are the "Church" as the "Eclessia" of the Christ Jesus... and not the building or the denomination that we claim) approximately one year ago, I decided to serve with the Security Team ministry.
This "Team" is comprised of about twelve men who "carry" in the church as CCW Permit holders. It is led by a very nice man. I immediately asked when training took place and when regular meetings of this Team took place. The "Chief" and a couple of the most vocal men on this Team looked at me like I was speaking Greek or Aramaic (and they did not understand why I was asking). In fact, I was publicly told in our one-and-only meeting (that I adamantly requested as a new member) that I "worry too much".
I had also asked to see the Church's Insurance Liability policy to determine if the Security Team members (who technically serve as "volunteers", and NOT employees in our capacities) were afforded any liability coverage if an "event" was to occur. Note that (generally) most "volunteers" are afforded insurance protections when acting in a capacity approved by their organization.
In my professional thirty year year career in another state, I was responsible as Risk Management Director for duties involving workers' compensation, liability, and property insurance, employee safety programs, etc. Tort claims administration was one such responsibility.
I was told to speak with our insurance broker (that contact person is coincidentally a church member) about my request. Our broker then asked a "hypothetical question" to the liability insurance underwriter about "coverage" for a Church Security Team member who (acting as a volunteer for our church) carries and acts in an event at church or at a church-sponsored function.
The insurance underwriter's answer was... "THERE IS NO LIABILITY COVERAGE FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL OR THE CHURCH!".
Although my wife and I personally have defense (not indemnification) coverage for civil or criminal acts involving any "weapon" through AOR, I would be bare for ANY indemnification or defense through the church's insurance policy. We could lose our house and other assets subsequent to an event at church. Defense costs alone can bankrupt the average person.
Because of this revelation and the absence of ANY training (meetings, discussions, or live-fire sessions), I officially resigned from the Security Team. Yes, I am still available for assisting in an event, but I will not serve in any official capacity in that regard.
Am I highly disappointed? YES! But I refuse to be part of any "Team" or ministry that is "flying by the seat of their pants"!
Excellent review. Thank you for sharing. You also just gave us an assortment of new weapons that can be concealed by those whom we need to guard against. Another good training topic. Thank you again.
I'd be curious to hear Mr. Graves perspective on the insurance front. In my experience serving as security at different church functions you are on your own. As far as exposure to the church for anyone not on staff its the same story. As far as insurance protections for volunteers acting in a church capacity, their not normally shooting at people. I'm not even sure if the policy exist to cover the volunteer and the church in the event of a shooting. There are so many variables and scenarios in the case of a shoot good or bad, justified, God forbid an innocent get's hit. Whoever writes that policy is A. got to be 1/2 crazy or B. just loves money enough to sell anything. 1 thing's for sure that policy would be pricey. We hire off-duty police officers to remove the exposure as a church enitity. Although plenty of people do carry and we don't discourage it any way. It's a real problem for the church to willingly endorse armed security, particularly if not at least Cleet certified. This is all just my perspective. I really would like to know if its possible for the church to protect itself and volunteers in this capacity by an insurance policy.
There is a manufacturer that is in our town and they make a 300 Blackout pistol silenced. Sigwo Arms SIC15 Mk5 Hyena. I'd love to have it, but for the complete package it is almost 3K, to much for me. I'll need to watch the video again, but what silencer are you running on the Jakl?
Great food for thought and consideration to enhance church security without accidently making victims of the congregation we are trying to protect.
I have followed your advice and recommendations as applied to the church that I pastor, and I have found your counsel very helpful.
During and after my Army Career, I have always carried some form of handgun in my vehicle for self defense. After a shooting experience I survived by the Grace of God, I believe several of these models would be a great choice to have on board for more fire power, especially if I am blocked or disabled and cannot escape the kill zone.
Thank You and God Bless You and Your Valuable Ministry to churches.
I am currently running a 300blk 8 inch barrel AR pistol with brace and a law tactical folder. I had to make some adjustments with buffers and buffer springs to find the right setup for reliability. Once I got it set up I have north of 1k rounds through it with no issues. I practice deploying it from my backpack that I also have a soft ballistic plate in. With a little practice it can be deployed quickly. The setup I have the folder opens and locks in place as I pull it from the bag. I wanted something that didn’t break the bank in case it was ever stolen from my vehicle in times when I unfortunately have to leave it. It conceals well. I wanted a rifle caliber instead of a pistol caliber and with a short barrel the 300blk is hard to beat. I use the Underwood Ammo control chaos rounds.
Super thorough evalaution here, especially the emphasis on the 0-100 yard accuracy standard as a gate keeper for inclusion. The PSA JAKL ranking first over platforms 3-4x its price is interesting, kinda shows how market positioning doesnt always equal performence when its actually tested. I ran a similar comarison a few years back for municipal contracts and deployment speed from bags was always the underestimated variable, turns out ergonomics under stress matter way more than paper specs.
Solid writeup. What caught my attention was the Nehemiah reference about prayer and preparation working in tandem, not opposition. That framework actualy shifts the conversation from tactical showmanship to stewardship. I've consulted with a few security teams and the ones that get bogged down usually skip the values piece upfront. Practical evalution on the hardware too, especially the suppresion angle.
Hopefully this isn't a dumb question - if the goal is a weapon that fits into a backpack, wouldn't I be better off with a FoldAR Concealed Carry Rifle? Then I'd have a full AR15 with a 16" barrel in the backpack (chambered in 5.56x45).
The folded length is 18" (which seems like it should fit in a pack like Eberlestock's Fade Transport 21" pack). So what is the reason a PDW would be preferred over this? Is the AR just too heavy for this purpose? Or is it that the when the AR is folded, it's just too thick? Or is this a situation where you need something shorter than a full-length AR?
300 Blackout is a fantastic option when dealing with a short barrel. Thanks for the evals and the article. Out of curiosity, do you employ a bag with a lock on it, or what steps do you take to make sure no one without authorization can access the PDW? And what methods do you use to secure the bag when it's not with you - a safe on campus? I'm assuming you probably carry it with a mag in but no round in the chamber? Thanks!
Brother Keith
I am thoroughly enjoying, as it were reading your insights. I am just joining a church security team and I don't think they follow you.
I appreciate your list of PDWs, but at this stage I still worry...they are one heartbeat away from being illegal SBRs, and leave us open to prosecution. What are your thoughts on the Keltec sub2000 and the SW model PCCs?
Thank you, and God Bless you for all you do for us.
Kirby
They are great guns to play around with at the range and to just have a good time. I really wouldn’t feel comfortable taking it into combat though.
Nice evaluation Mr. Graves. I was a bit surprised though that the CMMG Banshee didn't make the list, particularly the 10mm Auto version.
Not only does the Banshee itself seems to be an ergonomic, reliable platform, but the 10mm Auto chambering is especially intriguing because of two prominent factors: A) ballistic performance; B) ammo and magazine (loadout) interchangability possibility.
----------------------------
(A). The 10mm can be loaded to achieve very similar terminal performance to 7.62×39 or 300 AAC out of the length of barrels requisite for a concealable (yet quickly deployable) PDW, but without excess muzzle blast and wasted propellant. Out of barrels in that conformation (i.e. around 7" to 8"), the cartridge actually has considerably more knockdown than 5.56 NATO, and yet isn't wasting propellant or breech pressure, with a large muzzle blast. Perhaps it's needless to say, but the 10mm also has much greater power and superior ballistic trajectory to 9×19 Parabellum out to the 100 yard consideration.
(B.) The 10mm Auto, unlike 300 AAC or other intermediate cartridges, can be and is chambered in fighting pistols. It's a very practical, eminently viable pistol cartridge, in addition to qualifying as an intermediate cartridge (loaded adequately) when fired from PDW length barrels. This affords team members the ability to have both the pistol and the PDW/longarm in the same chambering, which is a huge operational and tactical advantage. In the case of the Banshee, if people are utilizing the excellent Glock20 handgun, the same magazines are even interchangeable, which is another excellent operational and tactical advantage.
In short here, utilizing 9×19 or 45 ACP to achieve the same uniformity in ammo carriage and interchangability of the loadout means sacrificing significant (arguably even substantive) power and ballistic performance out of the PDW, while utlizing 300 AAC, 5.56, 7.62×39 or similar to any of these means giving up shared ammo loadout and interchangability.
----------------------------
Leaving aside the idea of 10mm Auto not being in the evaluation as an intermediate cartridge, I would be most curious to hear why the Banshee (in any chambering) did not make the list. Was it considered? If so, did you discern issues with it? Would be awesome to get a follow up reply.
Regards.
@Joshua O'Brien,
I have owned the CMMG Mk10 when it was first released. I'm a 10mm guy and own 4 different 10mm pistols and/or PCC. CMMG is a great concept, but people need to be aware of one issue with this gun before laying out the money for it.
To get that long case to proper feed/function CMMG designed that gun with a lot of case head protrusion. This helps get that long case squared up with the chamber to properly seat/headspace and subsequently fire/eject.
Have you noticed the bulges going 360 degrees around the base of the case for the first .300 of case length measured up from the base of the case? Yes, I also purchased the 8oz extra heavy buffer and it helps, but there is still bugles when firing higher pressure ammunition. I can fire S&B FMJ or similar rounds and the cases expand but not too bad. But you put any type of defensive round in there that is good quality (Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST 200gr SD loads will severely bugle the cases to where they can never be reloaded safely a second time. Even if you don't reload, CMMG is relaying on the thickness of the first .300" of the case to take the pressure before and during the extraction process when the chamber pressure is still very high because of the radial delayed blowback design. The "lugs" on mine have peened over a lot to where they have created sharp edges. I just wished CMMG themselves and all the youtube gun reviewers who praised this gun so heavily would have brought up this issue.
I'm left handed and I look right into the ejection port of my Banshee and .035/.040 of brass is what is holding back the chamber pressure from blowing directly into my face.
But I love the ergo of the Banshee with 100% AR based controls shooting a short barreled 10mm. So I contacted Rudy at maconarmory.com and had him build me a complete DI uppper in 10mm and took off the CMMG radial delayed design. Rudy's chamber is fully supported and using a adjustable gas key and the heavy 8oz buffer I can shoot heavy pressure ammo. Then if I want to shoot practice ammo I put the H3 buffer back in it with changing the gas key setting and it will run most practice FMJ ammo.
Using the DI upper I can do called headshots out to 100yds with terminal ballistics similar to what a 40 S&W does out of a pistol at the muzzle. But you need to keep over penetration in mind with this setup. Great for engaging around vehicles in a parking lot, but not so great inside with kids on the other side of the wall you might be shooting towards.
Please don't take this wrong, I love the CMMG concept. I just wish they would have been upfront about how they accomplished the good feed/firing/extraction that everyone else had issues with in 10mm. And over-penetration is a real question everyone needs to evaluate themselves.
I wish I could post pictures. I could show the lug peening issue and the case bulging issues.
I know of two other Banshees in my area that are 9mm and they run them hard all day and never had any issues with the peening of the lugs. Obviously they don't have the bulging issue because of the shorter 9mm case feed very easily.
in HIS service,
Steve
I am also a huge fan of the CMMG 10mm. That is a great tool and I have not seen any real negative feedback on it. My only drawback for it is the cost.
Keith,
As always, great information!
I am no "quitter", but I'll share my story about our local church here in Upstate NY. After becoming a "members" of our church (for clarification, we Jesus-Believers are the "Church" as the "Eclessia" of the Christ Jesus... and not the building or the denomination that we claim) approximately one year ago, I decided to serve with the Security Team ministry.
This "Team" is comprised of about twelve men who "carry" in the church as CCW Permit holders. It is led by a very nice man. I immediately asked when training took place and when regular meetings of this Team took place. The "Chief" and a couple of the most vocal men on this Team looked at me like I was speaking Greek or Aramaic (and they did not understand why I was asking). In fact, I was publicly told in our one-and-only meeting (that I adamantly requested as a new member) that I "worry too much".
I had also asked to see the Church's Insurance Liability policy to determine if the Security Team members (who technically serve as "volunteers", and NOT employees in our capacities) were afforded any liability coverage if an "event" was to occur. Note that (generally) most "volunteers" are afforded insurance protections when acting in a capacity approved by their organization.
In my professional thirty year year career in another state, I was responsible as Risk Management Director for duties involving workers' compensation, liability, and property insurance, employee safety programs, etc. Tort claims administration was one such responsibility.
I was told to speak with our insurance broker (that contact person is coincidentally a church member) about my request. Our broker then asked a "hypothetical question" to the liability insurance underwriter about "coverage" for a Church Security Team member who (acting as a volunteer for our church) carries and acts in an event at church or at a church-sponsored function.
The insurance underwriter's answer was... "THERE IS NO LIABILITY COVERAGE FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL OR THE CHURCH!".
Although my wife and I personally have defense (not indemnification) coverage for civil or criminal acts involving any "weapon" through AOR, I would be bare for ANY indemnification or defense through the church's insurance policy. We could lose our house and other assets subsequent to an event at church. Defense costs alone can bankrupt the average person.
Because of this revelation and the absence of ANY training (meetings, discussions, or live-fire sessions), I officially resigned from the Security Team. Yes, I am still available for assisting in an event, but I will not serve in any official capacity in that regard.
Am I highly disappointed? YES! But I refuse to be part of any "Team" or ministry that is "flying by the seat of their pants"!
Am I wrong? Your feedback is welcomed....
Excellent review. Thank you for sharing. You also just gave us an assortment of new weapons that can be concealed by those whom we need to guard against. Another good training topic. Thank you again.
I'd be curious to hear Mr. Graves perspective on the insurance front. In my experience serving as security at different church functions you are on your own. As far as exposure to the church for anyone not on staff its the same story. As far as insurance protections for volunteers acting in a church capacity, their not normally shooting at people. I'm not even sure if the policy exist to cover the volunteer and the church in the event of a shooting. There are so many variables and scenarios in the case of a shoot good or bad, justified, God forbid an innocent get's hit. Whoever writes that policy is A. got to be 1/2 crazy or B. just loves money enough to sell anything. 1 thing's for sure that policy would be pricey. We hire off-duty police officers to remove the exposure as a church enitity. Although plenty of people do carry and we don't discourage it any way. It's a real problem for the church to willingly endorse armed security, particularly if not at least Cleet certified. This is all just my perspective. I really would like to know if its possible for the church to protect itself and volunteers in this capacity by an insurance policy.
If you carry a firearm, you 100% need a self-defense protection plan. This is the one I recommend. https://protectwithbear.com/pages/christian-warrior-training
There is a manufacturer that is in our town and they make a 300 Blackout pistol silenced. Sigwo Arms SIC15 Mk5 Hyena. I'd love to have it, but for the complete package it is almost 3K, to much for me. I'll need to watch the video again, but what silencer are you running on the Jakl?
I’m running a Surefire SOCOM 300
Brother Keith
Another top notch video.
Great food for thought and consideration to enhance church security without accidently making victims of the congregation we are trying to protect.
I have followed your advice and recommendations as applied to the church that I pastor, and I have found your counsel very helpful.
During and after my Army Career, I have always carried some form of handgun in my vehicle for self defense. After a shooting experience I survived by the Grace of God, I believe several of these models would be a great choice to have on board for more fire power, especially if I am blocked or disabled and cannot escape the kill zone.
Thank You and God Bless You and Your Valuable Ministry to churches.
Larry
Greetings,
I love what you are doing for our Christian family. Your product reviews are priceless and meaningful.
You have reviewed the bag gun. What bags do you recommend and why. I would love to see a review on those top five.
God Bless you,
Jeff
I am currently running a 300blk 8 inch barrel AR pistol with brace and a law tactical folder. I had to make some adjustments with buffers and buffer springs to find the right setup for reliability. Once I got it set up I have north of 1k rounds through it with no issues. I practice deploying it from my backpack that I also have a soft ballistic plate in. With a little practice it can be deployed quickly. The setup I have the folder opens and locks in place as I pull it from the bag. I wanted something that didn’t break the bank in case it was ever stolen from my vehicle in times when I unfortunately have to leave it. It conceals well. I wanted a rifle caliber instead of a pistol caliber and with a short barrel the 300blk is hard to beat. I use the Underwood Ammo control chaos rounds.
Super thorough evalaution here, especially the emphasis on the 0-100 yard accuracy standard as a gate keeper for inclusion. The PSA JAKL ranking first over platforms 3-4x its price is interesting, kinda shows how market positioning doesnt always equal performence when its actually tested. I ran a similar comarison a few years back for municipal contracts and deployment speed from bags was always the underestimated variable, turns out ergonomics under stress matter way more than paper specs.
Solid writeup. What caught my attention was the Nehemiah reference about prayer and preparation working in tandem, not opposition. That framework actualy shifts the conversation from tactical showmanship to stewardship. I've consulted with a few security teams and the ones that get bogged down usually skip the values piece upfront. Practical evalution on the hardware too, especially the suppresion angle.
Hopefully this isn't a dumb question - if the goal is a weapon that fits into a backpack, wouldn't I be better off with a FoldAR Concealed Carry Rifle? Then I'd have a full AR15 with a 16" barrel in the backpack (chambered in 5.56x45).
The folded length is 18" (which seems like it should fit in a pack like Eberlestock's Fade Transport 21" pack). So what is the reason a PDW would be preferred over this? Is the AR just too heavy for this purpose? Or is it that the when the AR is folded, it's just too thick? Or is this a situation where you need something shorter than a full-length AR?
I am assuming you are carrying the PSA JAKL?
I am. It is hitting above its weight.
Look at you, rolling all Gucci with the B&T, fantastic weapon systems I personally own seven APC‘s with more on the way.
300 Blackout is a fantastic option when dealing with a short barrel. Thanks for the evals and the article. Out of curiosity, do you employ a bag with a lock on it, or what steps do you take to make sure no one without authorization can access the PDW? And what methods do you use to secure the bag when it's not with you - a safe on campus? I'm assuming you probably carry it with a mag in but no round in the chamber? Thanks!
Sub 2k Gen 3?