I’d use them for my whole career, but they are not good if you’re a retiree. If you read their member agreement, you have to have your badge and your retiree ID on you and you can only use the gun that you qualified for. It is very restrictive if you don’t live in California. I looked at CCW safe, but you had to pay more if you were at church security it’s been a while since I took a look at their member agreement and I don’t know if they have changed it since then. They aren’t that bad.
This is very disturbing, even frightening. I personally believe it is becoming more evident with each passing day that Volunteer Security Staff must wear cameras to protect themselves and their Churches against potentially false litigation moves.
In this incident, the unimaginable may have occurred if he was armed, which he may well have been but met with too much interference.
Perhaps the trespasser has connections to someone on the Town or County payroll or similar, hence the professional request for additional information declined, and lack of legal support for the Veteran. Or worse, perhaps hired by a type of organization similar to paid groups who traveled during Covid attempting to incite violence, in order to create issues going forward for Church Security Teams post a public Court Case?
As stated, all facts or evidence are unavailable.
👉🏼 But how can we support this man in addition to our prayers?
Keith, This is disturbing on many levels. USCCA not stepping up. I will be dropping USCCA immediately. Police ignoring FOIA. This is really concerning. I have never heard that pepper spray was considered deadly force. "Pepper spray was not an option, and this was clearly not a deadly force situation." I always considered OC spray less lethal and first form of defense since it can be deployed at distance. Is this an Idaho statute? I live in Texas and service my local church body in Austin. Please help us understand.
It's a good question. Proximity, wind, others present and close to the Threat would eliminate pepper as an option. If the security team hasn't trained together for pepper they may be affected. We used the term Disengage to signal deployment of non-lethal force and prevent allies being hit.
One aspect of this came up in a training session I had today: If I understood my trainer correctly, when there is a disruptive person at church, they are not trespassing until they have been asked to leave and refused to do so. Also, in some churches, only the pastor has the authority to make that request, and some pastors really don't want to do so.
Today's trainer also had a different take on another scenario than a different trainer last month. In the scenario, a man is holding a gun to his own head while walking toward the building entrance, with his back to me. What I was told last month was that if the man kept walking toward the door despite instructions not to, once he got close enough to the door that there was no where else for him to go than inside, it would be proper to shoot him in the back. Today's trainer wasn't sure that would be legal, and instead suggested stopping him physically, but not by shooting him. From this case, I wonder if even touching the man would be allowable in some jurisdictions, even though in the scenario, if the man is not stopped, he immediately shoots others inside the building.
We really do need to iron out what a church security team can and can't do in such cases, or we won't have anyone willing to serve on the security team, and perhaps no one willing to even come to church.
Glad I don't have USCCA. Heading to Right to Bear. As church security, we must protect our congregation and our church (which is PRIVATE property). Thanks for this warning about USCCA.
I have a security/safety team here in Moscow Idaho and would never have thought that incident would be a problem in Idaho.
In fact we are doing a training session tomorrow covering protocols in case of a disruptive person. I’m using as one training segment your “De-escalation tactics for church security.”
As a 26 year retired Peace Officer state park California ranger, one of the reasons we moved from Cali was to get away from those situations.
I was up in the redwoods above San Francisco most of my career.
I faithfully follow your training and have used it a lot with our team
God Bless and keep us apprised.
PS I’m dropping USCCA after being a member for many years! Will look into. Right to Bear
It doesn't matter that the man was a marine, nor that he was decorated. I don't like how those aspects are brought up as a way to justify the man. What should justify the man are his actions in the moment. Those actions looked reasonable to me. I don't see anything in the video to warrant any charges.
Wow! What an eye opener on USCCA. I have had them for several years, and thank God I have never had to use them. I will be reviewing your list of recommended agencies for insurance. This is one area that you don’t want to short change yourself.
Thank you Keith, for this insight. As a member of USCCA for several years now, you have me rethinking my membership. I will definitely be doing some additional research and determine what is best for my needs.
I appreciate you walking us through this incident. I would appreciate follow-up as it progresses.
Concerning Right to Bear - At your suggestion I contacted them and discovered that if you travel you must purchase extra coverage or you aren't covered. So the premium only covers you in your home state. That doesn't make sense to me.
It seems USCCA approaches their decisions to ‘help or not’ based on iron tight cases, in which case, they are not needed anyway. The video is controversial and certainly not the complete story. USCCA should provide help with assumption of innocence. Their denial to even offer advice is like putting a guilty stamp on the case.
As for the video being controversial, I do wonder why the skateboarder was allowed to continue to aggressively approach the building that security appears to be protecting after being knocked down and without security even following him. I can only speculate why but will not do so here.
None the less, I will once again try Right To Bear. However, as mentioned a few months ago, they made it essentially impossible to join given a non-functional website, a couple of phones calls, and what seemed like bot texts to which I was supposed to get a direct email with the necessary link to join. That email was never received and I was left with the impression of a scam with all the right words. Again, I’ll take another look. I wonder if we have any examples of real cases where Right To Bear paid off with real action. In the meantime, it only makes sense to cancel USCCA if they only help where it seems they are not needed. This is not the first I have heard of this issue.
Thanks Keith. Keep fighting the good fight and God bless.
I got rid of PORAC LDF.
I’d use them for my whole career, but they are not good if you’re a retiree. If you read their member agreement, you have to have your badge and your retiree ID on you and you can only use the gun that you qualified for. It is very restrictive if you don’t live in California. I looked at CCW safe, but you had to pay more if you were at church security it’s been a while since I took a look at their member agreement and I don’t know if they have changed it since then. They aren’t that bad.
This is very disturbing, even frightening. I personally believe it is becoming more evident with each passing day that Volunteer Security Staff must wear cameras to protect themselves and their Churches against potentially false litigation moves.
In this incident, the unimaginable may have occurred if he was armed, which he may well have been but met with too much interference.
Perhaps the trespasser has connections to someone on the Town or County payroll or similar, hence the professional request for additional information declined, and lack of legal support for the Veteran. Or worse, perhaps hired by a type of organization similar to paid groups who traveled during Covid attempting to incite violence, in order to create issues going forward for Church Security Teams post a public Court Case?
As stated, all facts or evidence are unavailable.
👉🏼 But how can we support this man in addition to our prayers?
Thank you for all you do.
Thanks for this info. We wear body cams on our church security shifts - for situations like this.
Sounds like Post Falls city government has been californicated.
Wonder who the trespasser belongs to …. This incident smells.
Keith, This is disturbing on many levels. USCCA not stepping up. I will be dropping USCCA immediately. Police ignoring FOIA. This is really concerning. I have never heard that pepper spray was considered deadly force. "Pepper spray was not an option, and this was clearly not a deadly force situation." I always considered OC spray less lethal and first form of defense since it can be deployed at distance. Is this an Idaho statute? I live in Texas and service my local church body in Austin. Please help us understand.
Hello Ted,
Keith was saying that the only reasonable force option left was physical. He basically explained neither Pepper Spray nor deadly force were viable.
I missed it. Why is pepper spray not viable?
It's a good question. Proximity, wind, others present and close to the Threat would eliminate pepper as an option. If the security team hasn't trained together for pepper they may be affected. We used the term Disengage to signal deployment of non-lethal force and prevent allies being hit.
I forgot to mention time, they probably didn't have time to draw and create distance to deploy OC.
Is there an update on this case?
Anything new on this???
One aspect of this came up in a training session I had today: If I understood my trainer correctly, when there is a disruptive person at church, they are not trespassing until they have been asked to leave and refused to do so. Also, in some churches, only the pastor has the authority to make that request, and some pastors really don't want to do so.
Today's trainer also had a different take on another scenario than a different trainer last month. In the scenario, a man is holding a gun to his own head while walking toward the building entrance, with his back to me. What I was told last month was that if the man kept walking toward the door despite instructions not to, once he got close enough to the door that there was no where else for him to go than inside, it would be proper to shoot him in the back. Today's trainer wasn't sure that would be legal, and instead suggested stopping him physically, but not by shooting him. From this case, I wonder if even touching the man would be allowable in some jurisdictions, even though in the scenario, if the man is not stopped, he immediately shoots others inside the building.
We really do need to iron out what a church security team can and can't do in such cases, or we won't have anyone willing to serve on the security team, and perhaps no one willing to even come to church.
Glad I don't have USCCA. Heading to Right to Bear. As church security, we must protect our congregation and our church (which is PRIVATE property). Thanks for this warning about USCCA.
Praying for his record to be cleared. Dismissal of case. Absurd! God, get Your glory here in Jesus Holy Name Amen 🙏🏽
Wow Keith,
That is very disturbing especially here in Idaho.
I have a security/safety team here in Moscow Idaho and would never have thought that incident would be a problem in Idaho.
In fact we are doing a training session tomorrow covering protocols in case of a disruptive person. I’m using as one training segment your “De-escalation tactics for church security.”
As a 26 year retired Peace Officer state park California ranger, one of the reasons we moved from Cali was to get away from those situations.
I was up in the redwoods above San Francisco most of my career.
I faithfully follow your training and have used it a lot with our team
God Bless and keep us apprised.
PS I’m dropping USCCA after being a member for many years! Will look into. Right to Bear
It doesn't matter that the man was a marine, nor that he was decorated. I don't like how those aspects are brought up as a way to justify the man. What should justify the man are his actions in the moment. Those actions looked reasonable to me. I don't see anything in the video to warrant any charges.
Wow! What an eye opener on USCCA. I have had them for several years, and thank God I have never had to use them. I will be reviewing your list of recommended agencies for insurance. This is one area that you don’t want to short change yourself.
Thank you Keith, for this insight. As a member of USCCA for several years now, you have me rethinking my membership. I will definitely be doing some additional research and determine what is best for my needs.
I appreciate you walking us through this incident. I would appreciate follow-up as it progresses.
Concerning Right to Bear - At your suggestion I contacted them and discovered that if you travel you must purchase extra coverage or you aren't covered. So the premium only covers you in your home state. That doesn't make sense to me.
It seems USCCA approaches their decisions to ‘help or not’ based on iron tight cases, in which case, they are not needed anyway. The video is controversial and certainly not the complete story. USCCA should provide help with assumption of innocence. Their denial to even offer advice is like putting a guilty stamp on the case.
As for the video being controversial, I do wonder why the skateboarder was allowed to continue to aggressively approach the building that security appears to be protecting after being knocked down and without security even following him. I can only speculate why but will not do so here.
None the less, I will once again try Right To Bear. However, as mentioned a few months ago, they made it essentially impossible to join given a non-functional website, a couple of phones calls, and what seemed like bot texts to which I was supposed to get a direct email with the necessary link to join. That email was never received and I was left with the impression of a scam with all the right words. Again, I’ll take another look. I wonder if we have any examples of real cases where Right To Bear paid off with real action. In the meantime, it only makes sense to cancel USCCA if they only help where it seems they are not needed. This is not the first I have heard of this issue.
Thanks Keith. Keep fighting the good fight and God bless.
Thanks for the info,Brother!! It saddens me that USCCA dropped the ball and from what I’m reading it’s not the first time. Blessings