As a retired cop I don't like to second guess other cops' actions and having been a cop under the auspices of the 9th Circus Court of Appeals I'm familiar with the court's leanings. What I took away from this is that having rounds taken in the back was a persuading image ... although we all know that this can happen under fully legit deadly force situations. It just sounds horrible to the unfamiliar, man was "shot in the back" and he was "only" carrying a baseball bat. I can hear the plaintiff's lawyers now, making him sound like a kid coming from baseball practice and walking away from the officer.
What I'd share with the security team at my church is a re-emphasis that if the suspect is not posing an IMMINENT threat that security may benefit by containing or otherwise stalling the suspect as we presume local LEOs are enroute. In this case, less lethal was attempted but failed. My church security carries less lethal but I find that use of force training emphasizes lethal force (pistol) training and I may suggest they train/practice contact-OODA Loop-incremental escalation of use of force (commands, less lethal, 2nd OODA, lethal). The head of our church security ministry is very serious about continuous learning and improvement so I will make some recommendations.
THANK YOU, Mr. Graves, for your dedication to this discipline. You and I may have crossed paths professionally in the past, I worked across the bay from you and retired as a Lt. in 2005. Be well, stay safe. Blessings.
Thank you for writing this up. Yah calls us to have discernment and honor Him and His ways. It is easier to prepare than to deal with problems of you hadnt.
Great insight, I would only add that in this instance when the OC spray failed a kinetic launcher (Byrna) may have bridged the gap between firearms and empty hands. As mentioned, having an intermediate weapon is critical (and required, IMO) for defenders. Also getting a personal self defense insurance policy like Legal Heat even if you are in the church insurance. Be Safe and Defendable Brothers!
This seems like another compromised Judicial branch that does not side with the citizens of this country an protects criminals.The man was coming at an officer with a deadly weapon an was commanded to drop the weapon. Clear good shoot. I believe.
Can you do a review affordable pepper ball pistols, bear spray, tazers ect. You know church bugits are always tight, and it's mosty retired people on security teams! Thank you for your wisdom. God bless you and yours!
I hesitate to even visit California for a few days every few years, knowing I would be unable to defend myself.
I'm sure this is beyond Keith's expertise but I'd like to see some advice about how to protect one's assets from such a lawsuit - especially one's home.
I talked with a policeman at a shooting range in California in 2008 who told me even California State Police need signed orders from a Judge to Carry weapons off of the clock. That's seems suspicious to me. All a perp needs to do is find out where a California policeman or woman lives, go to their home and cause harm. California Police should just go to work without their vests under those circumstances... #FuckCaliforniaPolitics
OK, less-than-lethal, but where do civilians get training on tasers, pepper, etc., as I'm sure you would not recommend people carrying weapons they are not qualified on?
Guy put it perfectly. Pepper spray is the easiest and best for church safety ministries. The training is easy to find. SABRE instructors are everywhere. Any security training company should be able to fulfill this role. For my church, we had a chemical munitions instructor (retired) on staff that is in the process of doing it now. You may have internal instructors, just check around.
SABRE corp has instructors across the country. After retiring from my cop job, I got trained and certified as a pepper spray instructor. My classes were popular and well received. You should be able to find a SABRE instructor at their website. Been a while since I checked. I stopped providing the classes during covid.
Ponder’s testimony, along with forensic evidence that showed the fatal shots struck Aguirre in the back, and eyewitness testimony that nearly 30 seconds passed before the second volley of shots were fired, ultimately led the jury to the conclusion that there was no imminent threat to
Ponder or anyone else at the time he was killed.
It doesn't seem to address if he was a threat when the shooting started, but he most certainly was no threat when the second volley of shots were fired.
As a church security volunteer I carry a pepper gel spray for a intermediate defensive use. I have the gel for windy conditions and use indoors in crowed circumstances.
Self defense shouldn't be a crime. All the officer needed to do us say, Stop, Don't hurt me, to demonstrate fear for his life, if the armed assailant continued forward, the first shot is legal in most states.
As a retired cop I don't like to second guess other cops' actions and having been a cop under the auspices of the 9th Circus Court of Appeals I'm familiar with the court's leanings. What I took away from this is that having rounds taken in the back was a persuading image ... although we all know that this can happen under fully legit deadly force situations. It just sounds horrible to the unfamiliar, man was "shot in the back" and he was "only" carrying a baseball bat. I can hear the plaintiff's lawyers now, making him sound like a kid coming from baseball practice and walking away from the officer.
What I'd share with the security team at my church is a re-emphasis that if the suspect is not posing an IMMINENT threat that security may benefit by containing or otherwise stalling the suspect as we presume local LEOs are enroute. In this case, less lethal was attempted but failed. My church security carries less lethal but I find that use of force training emphasizes lethal force (pistol) training and I may suggest they train/practice contact-OODA Loop-incremental escalation of use of force (commands, less lethal, 2nd OODA, lethal). The head of our church security ministry is very serious about continuous learning and improvement so I will make some recommendations.
THANK YOU, Mr. Graves, for your dedication to this discipline. You and I may have crossed paths professionally in the past, I worked across the bay from you and retired as a Lt. in 2005. Be well, stay safe. Blessings.
Thank you for writing this up. Yah calls us to have discernment and honor Him and His ways. It is easier to prepare than to deal with problems of you hadnt.
Thank you for your hard work God bless you
Great insight, I would only add that in this instance when the OC spray failed a kinetic launcher (Byrna) may have bridged the gap between firearms and empty hands. As mentioned, having an intermediate weapon is critical (and required, IMO) for defenders. Also getting a personal self defense insurance policy like Legal Heat even if you are in the church insurance. Be Safe and Defendable Brothers!
This seems like another compromised Judicial branch that does not side with the citizens of this country an protects criminals.The man was coming at an officer with a deadly weapon an was commanded to drop the weapon. Clear good shoot. I believe.
Can you do a review affordable pepper ball pistols, bear spray, tazers ect. You know church bugits are always tight, and it's mosty retired people on security teams! Thank you for your wisdom. God bless you and yours!
I hesitate to even visit California for a few days every few years, knowing I would be unable to defend myself.
I'm sure this is beyond Keith's expertise but I'd like to see some advice about how to protect one's assets from such a lawsuit - especially one's home.
I talked with a policeman at a shooting range in California in 2008 who told me even California State Police need signed orders from a Judge to Carry weapons off of the clock. That's seems suspicious to me. All a perp needs to do is find out where a California policeman or woman lives, go to their home and cause harm. California Police should just go to work without their vests under those circumstances... #FuckCaliforniaPolitics
OK, less-than-lethal, but where do civilians get training on tasers, pepper, etc., as I'm sure you would not recommend people carrying weapons they are not qualified on?
Guy put it perfectly. Pepper spray is the easiest and best for church safety ministries. The training is easy to find. SABRE instructors are everywhere. Any security training company should be able to fulfill this role. For my church, we had a chemical munitions instructor (retired) on staff that is in the process of doing it now. You may have internal instructors, just check around.
SABRE corp has instructors across the country. After retiring from my cop job, I got trained and certified as a pepper spray instructor. My classes were popular and well received. You should be able to find a SABRE instructor at their website. Been a while since I checked. I stopped providing the classes during covid.
Excellent Kieth - Thank you this is great guidance
Ponder’s testimony, along with forensic evidence that showed the fatal shots struck Aguirre in the back, and eyewitness testimony that nearly 30 seconds passed before the second volley of shots were fired, ultimately led the jury to the conclusion that there was no imminent threat to
Ponder or anyone else at the time he was killed.
It doesn't seem to address if he was a threat when the shooting started, but he most certainly was no threat when the second volley of shots were fired.
Amen brother and thanks for sharing your professional knowledge and experience with us.
There is a company in California that makes a less lethal spray that is more suitable indoors than pepper spray.
This is very helpful information to and consider.
Let’s see how long this lasts.
The Ninth Circuit has had the most cases heard and overturned by the Supreme Court since 2007, with 243 cases decided and 192 (79%) overturned.
As a church security volunteer I carry a pepper gel spray for a intermediate defensive use. I have the gel for windy conditions and use indoors in crowed circumstances.
Self defense shouldn't be a crime. All the officer needed to do us say, Stop, Don't hurt me, to demonstrate fear for his life, if the armed assailant continued forward, the first shot is legal in most states.